Long-s and ligatures

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Pleaſe be our gueſt and feel free to contribute in Engliſh. When you click on “Regiſtrieren” you will be able to change “Sprache” to Engliſh. After you have regiſtered, you can log in by clicking on “Anmelden” and the forum infraſtructure will ſhow up in Engliſh.

Long-s and ligatures

Beitragvon Jellby » 2015-08-07, 16:44

I'm trying to reproduce the following Swedish fragment with UnifrakturMaguntia:

Bild

which says:

Se grafven öppnas, och din vän Uti dess djup försvinner! Han kommer ej till dig igen, Men snart du honom hinner. Snart hvila våra kalla ben, Och sommarns flägt och solens sken Skall dem ej längre lifva.

(Actually, it says "forjvinner" and "fläkt", but I think those are typos.)

I've activated the "ss11" feature, but that doesn't give me the long-s in "försvinner" or the ß ligature in "dess". I'm not sure these are completely correct in fraktur Swedish, but that's the sample I have, and at least "förſvinner" appears in other texts I find online too). Is it possible to get this with the current font version? Could we have some additional feature that makes it possible if it isn't?

I could of course hard-code the ſ and ß, but I don't I have to explain why I'd prefer not to ;)
Jellby
 
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Re: Long-s and ligatures

Beitragvon Wrzlprmft » 2015-08-16, 23:32

Jellby hat geſchrieben:I've activated the "ss11" feature, but that doesn't give me the long-s in "försvinner" or the ß ligature in "dess". I'm not sure these are completely correct in fraktur Swedish, but that's the sample I have, and at least "förſvinner" appears in other texts I find online too). Is it possible to get this with the current font version?


The reaſon for “försvinner” is plainly that the current heuriſtics is deſigned for German where there is no non-compound word ſtarting with sv. Thus this combination would only appear in compounds with the s being the laſt letter of the firſt part, which automatically renders it a round s according to the German rules for s typeſetting. To obtain “försvinner” with the current verſion, you have to enter för‌svinner (or copy this) with a zero-width non joiner between r and s.

dess ſhould be rendered “deſs”. ſs is not replaced with ß becauſe the two were and are orthografically different in German, though you hardly found them both in the ſame text hiſtorically. So ß is not a plain ſs ligature. Moreover, as the ß is eaſily available on all keyboard layouts for the German language (in contraſt to the ſ) and moſt uſers are aware when to uſe it in the deſired orthography, there is no real reaſon to provide an automatism for this. To obtain “deß”, you have to uſe the ß character.


Jellby hat geſchrieben:Could we have some additional feature that makes it possible if it isn't?


In theory, yes, but that’s a lot of work. It would require ſome inſights into the Swediſh long s rules or a corpus containing correct long s ſpelling. Even then, it may not work for words like “förſvinner” as Swediſh has compoſites like the ones I mentioned for German. If you can provide me with a table like the one on page 31 here, I will happily implement it, however.
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Wrzlprmft
 
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Re: Long-s and ligatures

Beitragvon Jellby » 2015-08-17, 19:29

Wrzlprmft hat geſchrieben:If you can provide me with a table like the one on page 31 here, I will happily implement it, however.


Unfortunately, I have only a superficial knowledge of Swedish (and practically nothing of its fraktur tradition). I could come up with a table that would look fine to me, but with no basis at all on real Swedish usage. Or I could get some samples or try to find someone who knows better (at least I'm in Sweden, so that should be easier).

To obtain “försvinner” with the current verſion, you have to enter för‌svinner (or copy this) with a zero-width non joiner between r and s.


That could do, I'll think if adding such a character is worth it (it would break searches in dumb systems, for instance).

To obtain “deß”, you have to uſe the ß character.


I don't think I'll do that. I don't want ß in a non-fraktur font, and I cannot guarantee the text will be rendered with fraktur (it will also break searches in some systems), I'd rather have ss or ſs in fraktur than ß in non-fraktur. I'll investigate if rendering ss as ß is common in Swedish fraktur and in that case maybe a variant/option could be added?
Jellby
 
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Re: Long-s and ligatures

Beitragvon Wrzlprmft » 2015-08-17, 20:41

Jellby hat geſchrieben:I'll investigate if rendering ss as ß is common in Swedish fraktur and in that case maybe a variant/option could be added?


Adding an optional feature that replaces ss, ſs or ſz with ß is no problem.
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